Part 6 - "The Prosperity System", So its GROWTH, POSSESSION/CONSUMPTION, COMPETITION, and UNACCOUNTABILITY...these are the four laws of current Capitalist society. I understand this framework and see it running throughout America; it makes sense to have a single bottom line when it comes to business. I have never heard of a triple bottom line, running my own business why do I have worry about the "greater good", I always thought that was something separate, its a selfish way to think but it part of how we are taught. It seems like these chapters look harshly on the prosperity, I would have like to seen a few examples of people doing it right, while there was the mention of Interface CEO, it doesn't go into much detail about how his business faired after he made changes.
Alan its true page 208 is powerful in the description of heaven and hell. How do we make these decisions of "good deeds" on a daily basis? There was a story i read recently about a guy that is around 65 and runs a very successful business at the end of each year he gives away and profits. Is this how we are called to live, I want to go on great vacations with my boys and travel the world but should I trade in these desires to complete more "good deeds"?
I can relate to the story of Zaccheaus on page 221 when he talks about giving away half of his possessions since that is what a divorce causes, but then again I guess they were never mine 100%. It’s not fun giving away anything, maybe God can change my heart in this area so I give more joyfully. It sounds weird when McLaren calls a new kind of economy the "love economy", it makes it sounds like its God's responsibility and not ours, but then again he wouldn’t be writing this book if he didn’t believe we need to make some sudden changes.
Wednesday, August 27, 2008
Friday, August 22, 2008
Section 6...feeling a bit overwhelmed
Anyone else feeling overwhelmed? This material is so though provoking but so intimidating...at least this morning at 4 am. Okay so we think we're flying but we're really crashing. The first industrial revolution is flawed. Our economy is based on property and has failed in its distribution and we're on a unsustainable crash course. We need a new economy built on love and sharing God's resources instead of gathering and hoarding. Sounds pretty easy right?
Don't mean to sound jaded, and I do find this material both convicting and compelling, but it is a lot to take in. I love where he says in 204 "If Jesus is indeed a hero who can inspire others to heroism at this critical moment, then hu must address this carelessness about future generations inherent in our conetmporary societal narrative....he must bring a better story." Yes, I agree. The Good News we often preach? To most it looks like bad news. But if we live for more than ourselves we have a hope to bring a better story to the world. I like that.
Pg 208 he branches into sustainable development and having a triple bottom line. As someone in business I found this part interesting but so difficult. Running a business is so hard right now and yes I do think about doing things in a new way when possible, but so often when money is tight and you are just trying to survive, the idea of economic sustainability goes out the window a bit to the more glaring fact of how do we pay the bills today? This one left me asking more questions about how I can do more.
I found it really interesting how he compared Adam and Eve to consumption and that the root of there problem was they didn't live within their creaturely limits. I agree but I think it is a bit simplistic. He then rattles off the entire problem of emergence of sin in Genesis and says "it can all be traced back to a problem of consumption beyond limits." And although I found his take on Genesis interesting, I feel like it is a bit manipulative to his argument....
Loved the section on Gratitude. "Gratitude becomes an acto fo deiant contemplation, expressing rebellion"....I like this thought that gratitude is an act of rebellion to the controlling mindset of the world. I can handle this.
Wish we could be all together and have a beer and talk about some of these issues. Is he dead on in so many ways? heck yes....the challenge is just in the implementation. You can see why so many people don't choose to look deeper into these issues. Because once you start looking, change is required of ourselves. And change is hard!
Miss you guys!
Don't mean to sound jaded, and I do find this material both convicting and compelling, but it is a lot to take in. I love where he says in 204 "If Jesus is indeed a hero who can inspire others to heroism at this critical moment, then hu must address this carelessness about future generations inherent in our conetmporary societal narrative....he must bring a better story." Yes, I agree. The Good News we often preach? To most it looks like bad news. But if we live for more than ourselves we have a hope to bring a better story to the world. I like that.
Pg 208 he branches into sustainable development and having a triple bottom line. As someone in business I found this part interesting but so difficult. Running a business is so hard right now and yes I do think about doing things in a new way when possible, but so often when money is tight and you are just trying to survive, the idea of economic sustainability goes out the window a bit to the more glaring fact of how do we pay the bills today? This one left me asking more questions about how I can do more.
I found it really interesting how he compared Adam and Eve to consumption and that the root of there problem was they didn't live within their creaturely limits. I agree but I think it is a bit simplistic. He then rattles off the entire problem of emergence of sin in Genesis and says "it can all be traced back to a problem of consumption beyond limits." And although I found his take on Genesis interesting, I feel like it is a bit manipulative to his argument....
Loved the section on Gratitude. "Gratitude becomes an acto fo deiant contemplation, expressing rebellion"....I like this thought that gratitude is an act of rebellion to the controlling mindset of the world. I can handle this.
Wish we could be all together and have a beer and talk about some of these issues. Is he dead on in so many ways? heck yes....the challenge is just in the implementation. You can see why so many people don't choose to look deeper into these issues. Because once you start looking, change is required of ourselves. And change is hard!
Miss you guys!
Sunday, August 17, 2008
Section 6
Hey Fellas,
Here is my thoughts/questions/reflections on section 6:
Chapter 23: I like the opening quote by Marx...it speaks to humans need to always see their perspective as correct and everyone else as flawed. Perhaps this happens less on a personal level, but it certainly happens all the time on a cultural level. The entire Imperialist notion of the White Man's Burden to bring civilization to the Native emananted this way of thinking about religion, politics, economics, etc.
I am convicted by McLaren's discussion about desire. It certainly speaks to my being and identity often...desire for success, perfection, winning, whatever. And where I seek fulfillment practically even thought logically I know these things are ultimately not supremely satisfying to the desire my heart and soul has for communion with God and deep relationship with others.
Corporation is an interesting documentary that I show to my classes during our study of the Industrial Revolution and how corporate America has evolved since that time. It certainly has its biases, but I found it thought provoking.
Ch. 24: The Anderson quotes are actually from the Corporation movie...his idea of intergenerational tyranny tied to our civilization and the Industrial Revolution is something I liked. Thoughts? I was talking with my mom about this, and it wasn't like she didn't care about future generations and the condition of the environment...she just a confidence in God that it would be taken care of either for good or for bad. Perhaps she is right. What is our role as Christians to be green as an outlet of our faith...and how do we have conversation with more conservative people like my Mom who believes there are more important things to focus on?
Ch. 25: Fruitfulness not consumption. Concern for the common good over self-interest. Rich toward God over my own riches. All summed up powerfully on page 208 with discussion of heaven and hell. Do you agree with his argument here? Is he looking at scripture one-sidedly or is he capturing the true message of Jesus?
Also like discussion on 210-211 about wealth and happiness. We certainly have the luxuries to accomodate a blissful experience, but our culture of problems seems to speak otherwise.
A different economy: the feeding of the 5000 was always just a miracle story for me as well. To think of it the light of being content with what we have and still being willing to share that is a powerful message from that gospel account.
Chapter 26: Let us conside the concept of justice. As Bono stated in his speech a few years back, it is not about charity its about justice. Point #1 we must commit ourselves to service. I am hopeful in my own struggle through these issues that in my positions of leadership I can commit myself to a servant leader role and impact people in powerful ways. It is not an easy task, but I think this is an area of particular relevance for me. How does this fit into your lives? What does it look like?
Alternative to communism/capitalism struggle that the 20th Century was defined by...how to make communities of collaboration in search of co-liberation as he calls it on 221. The church as the conscious of the market-driven world instead of its defender. This will be our charge if we are to live as transformed people.
Well guys, only two chapters to go. Good stuff as always. Let me know your thoughts in response. Peace, alan.
Here is my thoughts/questions/reflections on section 6:
Chapter 23: I like the opening quote by Marx...it speaks to humans need to always see their perspective as correct and everyone else as flawed. Perhaps this happens less on a personal level, but it certainly happens all the time on a cultural level. The entire Imperialist notion of the White Man's Burden to bring civilization to the Native emananted this way of thinking about religion, politics, economics, etc.
I am convicted by McLaren's discussion about desire. It certainly speaks to my being and identity often...desire for success, perfection, winning, whatever. And where I seek fulfillment practically even thought logically I know these things are ultimately not supremely satisfying to the desire my heart and soul has for communion with God and deep relationship with others.
Corporation is an interesting documentary that I show to my classes during our study of the Industrial Revolution and how corporate America has evolved since that time. It certainly has its biases, but I found it thought provoking.
Ch. 24: The Anderson quotes are actually from the Corporation movie...his idea of intergenerational tyranny tied to our civilization and the Industrial Revolution is something I liked. Thoughts? I was talking with my mom about this, and it wasn't like she didn't care about future generations and the condition of the environment...she just a confidence in God that it would be taken care of either for good or for bad. Perhaps she is right. What is our role as Christians to be green as an outlet of our faith...and how do we have conversation with more conservative people like my Mom who believes there are more important things to focus on?
Ch. 25: Fruitfulness not consumption. Concern for the common good over self-interest. Rich toward God over my own riches. All summed up powerfully on page 208 with discussion of heaven and hell. Do you agree with his argument here? Is he looking at scripture one-sidedly or is he capturing the true message of Jesus?
Also like discussion on 210-211 about wealth and happiness. We certainly have the luxuries to accomodate a blissful experience, but our culture of problems seems to speak otherwise.
A different economy: the feeding of the 5000 was always just a miracle story for me as well. To think of it the light of being content with what we have and still being willing to share that is a powerful message from that gospel account.
Chapter 26: Let us conside the concept of justice. As Bono stated in his speech a few years back, it is not about charity its about justice. Point #1 we must commit ourselves to service. I am hopeful in my own struggle through these issues that in my positions of leadership I can commit myself to a servant leader role and impact people in powerful ways. It is not an easy task, but I think this is an area of particular relevance for me. How does this fit into your lives? What does it look like?
Alternative to communism/capitalism struggle that the 20th Century was defined by...how to make communities of collaboration in search of co-liberation as he calls it on 221. The church as the conscious of the market-driven world instead of its defender. This will be our charge if we are to live as transformed people.
Well guys, only two chapters to go. Good stuff as always. Let me know your thoughts in response. Peace, alan.
Sunday, August 10, 2008
Section 5
Guys
Just finished section. I must admit I really liked it, but it is some dense material that I want to re-read and check some of his references to digest more. Truly, we are a country addicted to power and violence as a means to power. Truly as American Christians we have taken the party line too often.
"To be a follower of Jesus in this light is a far different affair than many of us were taught: it means to join Jesus' peace insurgency, to see through every regime that promises peace through violence, peace through domination, peace through genocide, peace through exclusion and intimidation."
I also loved his discussion on value of peacemeaking. "The work of peacemaking is alwasy urent in peacetime as in wartime. Without people giving themselves to this important work, the entropy and gravity of war will exert their hellish, downward, destructive pull."
Believe it or not, I spent my day thinking about peacemaking. I'm not very good at it. I'm more geared towards what is fair, towards judgement, towards repayment of harm when harm is done. But today I tried to be a peacemaker. When things annoyed me today with some employees or guests or situations, I thought first about reacting how Christ would react. It was pretty encouraging.
I'm liking the book a lot. Let's keep moving and finish it up....and then the hard part begins...having to live it out!
Just finished section. I must admit I really liked it, but it is some dense material that I want to re-read and check some of his references to digest more. Truly, we are a country addicted to power and violence as a means to power. Truly as American Christians we have taken the party line too often.
"To be a follower of Jesus in this light is a far different affair than many of us were taught: it means to join Jesus' peace insurgency, to see through every regime that promises peace through violence, peace through domination, peace through genocide, peace through exclusion and intimidation."
I also loved his discussion on value of peacemeaking. "The work of peacemaking is alwasy urent in peacetime as in wartime. Without people giving themselves to this important work, the entropy and gravity of war will exert their hellish, downward, destructive pull."
Believe it or not, I spent my day thinking about peacemaking. I'm not very good at it. I'm more geared towards what is fair, towards judgement, towards repayment of harm when harm is done. But today I tried to be a peacemaker. When things annoyed me today with some employees or guests or situations, I thought first about reacting how Christ would react. It was pretty encouraging.
I'm liking the book a lot. Let's keep moving and finish it up....and then the hard part begins...having to live it out!
Gabe's post
I receive a lot from this section, beginning with the first subtitle on Chapter 19 "Joining the Peace Insurgency". How do we do so with the Old Testament still on the books? As pointed out its full of killings in the name of God, isn't all of the Bible the Divine Word of God. I know that Jesus changed the game from rules into relationship, yet modern society seems still play by the God on our side scenario. Your right Alan about chapter 20 which carries over to chapter 21, I felt ashamed because I was never aware of such things as stated on pg. 163 "the US military budget was then (2006) larger than the next twenty five nations combined." In this chapter we see previous Presidents making statements like Eisenhower and how we will become morally and economically bankrupt for the illusion of security and with Carter saying "we can't be both the world's leading champion of peace and the world's leading supplier of arms." These are quotes 20 and 40 years ago and in which direction has American headed in this area?? So we as a nation are addicted to war. I just wonder when we as a nation will stop finding people we don't like. It doesn't seem that America is rock bottom. Alan, in one of your questions you asked how we as "American Christians" should respond, I don't really think of myself as an "American Christian". I found myself thinking today after this section, the more I learn about America the I don't really like it.
Here are Gabe's thoughts to the last post. It is amazing just since reading this book how many Americans who proclaim Christ are also addicted to the narrative of violence. I understand and can see how you can argue from a liberal/conservative stance regarding something like the poverty gap. Perhaps government's main role isn't to narrow the rich/poor gap and perhaps if churches did a better job with social justice the government would have to...but I'm amazed at how many Conservative Christians are also on board with violence that comes along with supporting Bush and the American foreign policy agenda. An additional food for thought article compared Bush to Batman...lookup on Wall Street Journal article about "Batman and W" it was an interesting read from a neo-conservative who paints Bush as a Batman like hero. I had some reactions to the article that would be fun to discuss if anyone reads the article. Also, I will post section 6 next week. Peace, alan.
Here are Gabe's thoughts to the last post. It is amazing just since reading this book how many Americans who proclaim Christ are also addicted to the narrative of violence. I understand and can see how you can argue from a liberal/conservative stance regarding something like the poverty gap. Perhaps government's main role isn't to narrow the rich/poor gap and perhaps if churches did a better job with social justice the government would have to...but I'm amazed at how many Conservative Christians are also on board with violence that comes along with supporting Bush and the American foreign policy agenda. An additional food for thought article compared Bush to Batman...lookup on Wall Street Journal article about "Batman and W" it was an interesting read from a neo-conservative who paints Bush as a Batman like hero. I had some reactions to the article that would be fun to discuss if anyone reads the article. Also, I will post section 6 next week. Peace, alan.
Sunday, August 3, 2008
How do I change?
Scott,
You ask me a good question...how will I coach with the ideas of this book in mind...how will I teach...how will Ilive if I am truly affected and transformed by the radical good news of the gospel. It is a hard question to answer. My life...our very lives as humans and especially Americans are rooted in competition, whether it be sports & games we play, money to be earned and jobs to be attained. Competition fuels everything...in good and bad ways both...but section 5 offers a very different idea if we are to people of God's peace making insurgency. I must admit it is easy to criticise a framing story of violence that only sees peace as the outcome of destroying your enemy. It is a much harder thing to evaluate when you own story is often lived out by achieving peace only when people realize my way is the right way. Unfortunately, this is often how Christians present the gospel...my truth being better than your truth and being stuck when others don't buy in. Even on an interpersonal level of relationships...I realize how radical this stance of gospel inspired living would change my self-centered attitudes and beliefs in my own abilities.
I guess to really answer the question I need to let these ideas really sink in the depths of who I am and then start to attempt to allow a new and unique spirit-shaped story guide my life. I sense slow changes taking root, but it definitely does not happen over night. My prayer life and study of God's word could be better so that I would be empowered to change and not have that feel like a result of my own personal discipline. It is with these thoughts that I pose a few refelctions/questions for section 5 and then go to bed. The little one is a good sleeper, but it still takes a toll in the early days.
Ch. 19: How do we as people seeking to promote a transformative power of the gospel separate it from the narrative of violence that so often gets associated with the Bible? Any ideas here to discuss?
Ch . 20: This chapter both infuriated me and left me feeling somewhat ashamed...of my own defense of American foreign policy and it is staggering the global implications daily being played out of America watching out for it's interests in places where violence is ruining societies. Can America become a peace inspiring nation in global politics while spending what it does on defense and weaponry? How should American Christians respond to these realities?
Ch. 21: Short section, staggering the numbers of the dead. Watch a film, entitled the "Secret Life of Words" about a woman who survived the Bosnian genocide. Anyone seen Hotel Rwanda or Sometimes in April? Also tragic films about real life killings.
Ch. 22: I liked the metaphor of war being like an addictive drug...and like power I think it has long consumed the thoughts and actions of people who can wield such a force when they feel empowered to do so. The rush and/or arrogance of the power of war often over looks the outcomes for those who have to fight the war. I've been intrigued lately considering the gap that exists between those who wage war versue those who have to fight. If those who waged war lived out the realities of war perhaps we would have far less violence to deal with in the world. I'm tired boys and off to bed. Sorry for the short reflections. Please post and we can discuss more.
Blessings, alan.
You ask me a good question...how will I coach with the ideas of this book in mind...how will I teach...how will Ilive if I am truly affected and transformed by the radical good news of the gospel. It is a hard question to answer. My life...our very lives as humans and especially Americans are rooted in competition, whether it be sports & games we play, money to be earned and jobs to be attained. Competition fuels everything...in good and bad ways both...but section 5 offers a very different idea if we are to people of God's peace making insurgency. I must admit it is easy to criticise a framing story of violence that only sees peace as the outcome of destroying your enemy. It is a much harder thing to evaluate when you own story is often lived out by achieving peace only when people realize my way is the right way. Unfortunately, this is often how Christians present the gospel...my truth being better than your truth and being stuck when others don't buy in. Even on an interpersonal level of relationships...I realize how radical this stance of gospel inspired living would change my self-centered attitudes and beliefs in my own abilities.
I guess to really answer the question I need to let these ideas really sink in the depths of who I am and then start to attempt to allow a new and unique spirit-shaped story guide my life. I sense slow changes taking root, but it definitely does not happen over night. My prayer life and study of God's word could be better so that I would be empowered to change and not have that feel like a result of my own personal discipline. It is with these thoughts that I pose a few refelctions/questions for section 5 and then go to bed. The little one is a good sleeper, but it still takes a toll in the early days.
Ch. 19: How do we as people seeking to promote a transformative power of the gospel separate it from the narrative of violence that so often gets associated with the Bible? Any ideas here to discuss?
Ch . 20: This chapter both infuriated me and left me feeling somewhat ashamed...of my own defense of American foreign policy and it is staggering the global implications daily being played out of America watching out for it's interests in places where violence is ruining societies. Can America become a peace inspiring nation in global politics while spending what it does on defense and weaponry? How should American Christians respond to these realities?
Ch. 21: Short section, staggering the numbers of the dead. Watch a film, entitled the "Secret Life of Words" about a woman who survived the Bosnian genocide. Anyone seen Hotel Rwanda or Sometimes in April? Also tragic films about real life killings.
Ch. 22: I liked the metaphor of war being like an addictive drug...and like power I think it has long consumed the thoughts and actions of people who can wield such a force when they feel empowered to do so. The rush and/or arrogance of the power of war often over looks the outcomes for those who have to fight the war. I've been intrigued lately considering the gap that exists between those who wage war versue those who have to fight. If those who waged war lived out the realities of war perhaps we would have far less violence to deal with in the world. I'm tired boys and off to bed. Sorry for the short reflections. Please post and we can discuss more.
Blessings, alan.
Subscribe to:
Posts (Atom)